Will the Northern Section of this railroad ever run again? - Northwestern Pacific Railroad Network2024-03-28T12:23:34Zhttps://nwprr.net/forum/topics/will-the-northern-section-of-this-railroad-ever-run-again?commentId=3290209%3AComment%3A190706&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noRichard,
I would just love to…tag:nwprr.net,2019-02-06:3290209:Comment:1907062019-02-06T12:41:03.614ZFred M. Cainhttps://nwprr.net/profile/FredMCain
<p>Richard,</p>
<p>I would just love to come and demonstrate my support for you. Unfortunately, I no longer live in the West and am now in northern Indiana. I'd come if I could. My thoughts and prayers will be with you nevertheless.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Fred M. Cain</p>
<p>Richard,</p>
<p>I would just love to come and demonstrate my support for you. Unfortunately, I no longer live in the West and am now in northern Indiana. I'd come if I could. My thoughts and prayers will be with you nevertheless.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Fred M. Cain</p> Jeff,
Thanks for your respon…tag:nwprr.net,2019-02-06:3290209:Comment:1907052019-02-06T12:30:01.896ZFred M. Cainhttps://nwprr.net/profile/FredMCain
<p>Jeff,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for your response! I have a couple of thoughts here. First of all, the so-called Humboldt & Eastern rail plan would build a new railroad from Eureka to the UP "I-5" corridor line near Redding or Red Bluff. There have been a few people on some other forums who have suggested that the complete rebuilding of the Eel River Canyon line could probably be done for much less than what this would cost. </p>
<p></p>
<p>That has caused me to wonder as to just what…</p>
<p>Jeff,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for your response! I have a couple of thoughts here. First of all, the so-called Humboldt & Eastern rail plan would build a new railroad from Eureka to the UP "I-5" corridor line near Redding or Red Bluff. There have been a few people on some other forums who have suggested that the complete rebuilding of the Eel River Canyon line could probably be done for much less than what this would cost. </p>
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<p>That has caused me to wonder as to just what the point is of all this. Is the H & E plan some kind of a method to spark action on the part of the state or somehow pressure them to help rebuild the Eel River line? (Quite possible). *OR* is it simply somekind of a money scheme designed to rip off local investors in the Humboldt Bay area? (even more possible).</p>
<p>In any event NO ONE involved with the plan would return my e-mails so it kinda makes you wonder.</p>
<p></p>
<p>The other thing I'd like to mention is that I had a nice telephone conversation yesterday with a guy named Mike at the Train Riders Association of California (TRAC). What he told me, if I understand this right, is that the SB 1029 mandate has been changed again and downgraded to "study" status. Could someone on this list look into that? He suggested that the trail thing might be a long, long way off if it ever gets built at all. Perhaps I misunderstood him.</p>
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<p>He told me that to completely rebuild and reopen the railroad would cost in the range of $1 billion (which we already knew) BUT he also guestimated that building this trail would cost in the range of $700-800 million - almost as much as a new rail line *AND" it would come with a multimillion dollar per year maintenance price tag. And for what? A few bike enthusiasts (of which I'm one)? </p>
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<p>Finally, Mike was kind of discouraged. He told me that no private company or organization would or could put up that kind of money for a rebuilding (which we also knew) and the State is extremely unlikely to be receptive to it. There are just simply too many other priorities. But he also said he didn't know what your new governor might do yet. Who knows?</p>
<p>But I still think it IS possible. It is my belief - opinion really - that reports of the completely destroyed Eel River section of the line have been exaggerated. I have "flown over" it on Google Earth and my best guess is that anywhere from 95-99% of the roadbed is intact from Willits to Eureka. The bottom line is WHERE can support be found for a rebuilding?</p>
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<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Fred M. Cain</p> Jeff et al:
That Bill is SB 1…tag:nwprr.net,2019-02-06:3290209:Comment:1905082019-02-06T06:47:26.845ZRichard C. Brandhttps://nwprr.net/profile/RichardCBrand
<p>Jeff et al:</p>
<p>That Bill is SB 1029 and if you read it you will see that in Sec 17 it transfers NCRA RoW ownership from Healdsberg north to SMART for both passenger service which seems to be in their area of expertise, but also freight service which is WAY out of their expertise.</p>
<p>I will be asking the SMART board tomorrow how they are planning to handle this new responsibility. Please all of you computer geeks here, come support me when I speak to the board. </p>
<p>Richard </p>
<p>Jeff et al:</p>
<p>That Bill is SB 1029 and if you read it you will see that in Sec 17 it transfers NCRA RoW ownership from Healdsberg north to SMART for both passenger service which seems to be in their area of expertise, but also freight service which is WAY out of their expertise.</p>
<p>I will be asking the SMART board tomorrow how they are planning to handle this new responsibility. Please all of you computer geeks here, come support me when I speak to the board. </p>
<p>Richard </p> There are a few developments.…tag:nwprr.net,2019-02-06:3290209:Comment:1907032019-02-06T06:33:21.917ZJeff Moorehttps://nwprr.net/profile/JeffMoore
<p>There are a few developments. At least one organization and supporters have been looking at constructing a new railroad from the Eureka area east to the central valley, but there does not seem to exist any sort of solid financial or logistical plans on how to get that line financed, much less built, much less how to support it once it does get into operation. Meanwhile, the State of California legislature late last year passed and the governor signed a bill that lays the groundwork for…</p>
<p>There are a few developments. At least one organization and supporters have been looking at constructing a new railroad from the Eureka area east to the central valley, but there does not seem to exist any sort of solid financial or logistical plans on how to get that line financed, much less built, much less how to support it once it does get into operation. Meanwhile, the State of California legislature late last year passed and the governor signed a bill that lays the groundwork for dissolving the North Coast Railroad Authority, giving SMART the old NCRA right-of-way north to maybe Willits, allocating funds to SMART to buy out the present NWP freight operation, and potentially convert the line north of Willits to a recreational trail. The bill effectively created some committees from various state agencies to study the expenses and logistics of these, with reports due in 2020 that will lay foundations for final decisions. Part of what needs to be figured out is what to do with NCRA's assets and substantial debt load. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Jeff Moore</p>
<p>Elko, NV </p>
<p></p> I was wondering if anyone has…tag:nwprr.net,2019-02-05:3290209:Comment:1905972019-02-05T12:12:01.322ZFred M. Cainhttps://nwprr.net/profile/FredMCain
<p>I was wondering if anyone has some new information on this thread from about 2½ years ago now. I have been studying this and trying to find information on it. I did find an article online that the Train Riders Association of California (TRAC) has been fighting to keep them from pulling up the rails.</p>
<p>Any new thoughts on this? </p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Fred M. Cain</p>
<p>I was wondering if anyone has some new information on this thread from about 2½ years ago now. I have been studying this and trying to find information on it. I did find an article online that the Train Riders Association of California (TRAC) has been fighting to keep them from pulling up the rails.</p>
<p>Any new thoughts on this? </p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Fred M. Cain</p> Thanks for the info Jordan, t…tag:nwprr.net,2016-04-08:3290209:Comment:1582682016-04-08T19:59:40.956ZEmilio Galohttps://nwprr.net/profile/Theduckmstr1
<p>Thanks for the info Jordan, that is good information to know, you know a bit more than I do.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info Jordan, that is good information to know, you know a bit more than I do.</p> Okay, here we go again.
Tak…tag:nwprr.net,2016-04-07:3290209:Comment:1583992016-04-07T05:17:40.915ZJeff Moorehttps://nwprr.net/profile/JeffMoore
<p>Okay, here we go again. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Take another look at the track between Willits and Ukiah. I just skimmed over it and came up with about a dozen washouts, including 5-6 major ones, and there is quite a bit of the line under trees that cannot be seen. And that imagery is almost three years old now. </p>
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<p>There is at present one sawmill operating in Willits, the Willits Redwood Company. I'm not sure how much they ever did ship by rail, but not much, and they are quite…</p>
<p>Okay, here we go again. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Take another look at the track between Willits and Ukiah. I just skimmed over it and came up with about a dozen washouts, including 5-6 major ones, and there is quite a bit of the line under trees that cannot be seen. And that imagery is almost three years old now. </p>
<p></p>
<p>There is at present one sawmill operating in Willits, the Willits Redwood Company. I'm not sure how much they ever did ship by rail, but not much, and they are quite small as mills go- in 2013, they had a capacity of 15 million board feet per year and employed two dozen people. To contrast, the Sierra Pacific Industries sawmill in Arcata (closing soon) cut close to 80 million board feet per year and employed 123, and Simpson's now closed mill in Korbel cut in the neighborhood of 240 million board feet a year. A standard centerbeam railcar has a capacity of about 110,000 board feet. This means, IF the one remaining mill in Willits shipped their entire output by rail- which very few sawmills ever do- they would ship all of 136 railcars per year. Another old rule of thumb in the shortline railroad industry is that, to remain viable, a shortline should haul 100 cars per mile of track per year. Thus, IF Willits Redwood Company were to ship their entire output by rail, it would provide enough traffic to realistically support the first 1.3 miles of track south from Willits. There hasn't been any other major sawmills in Willits since the last large one closed in the middle 1990s, and the large sawmill that built and supported the California Western Railroad closed in 2002, though it had been without rail service for four years by that point. </p>
<p></p>
<p>So, Emilio, let's go to your next statement, to the effect that if the line could be reopened, and by extension if Willits still had any large shippers left in it, lumber could be hauled from Willits to Ukiah and restore the former glory years. You seem to be suggesting that there exists a market for lumber produced in one town in the other town, which there isn't. This short of a haul, even if it did exist, would certainly NOT move by rail. No way would rail ever be cost competitive for this short of a haul- for that matter, rail service for lumber traffic really isn't all that competitive from any part of California to any other part of California. The only way reopening the line between Willits and Ukiah would ever make sense is if you continued on down the rest of the way to the current end of the reactivated line down near Windsor so that lumber could be interchanged to the rest of the nation's rail network, and there is a lot of expensive repairs required for that section, including at least one collapsed tunnel and a whole lot of washouts and landslides. If the reactivated NWP ever does get extended north from Windsor, the potential is there to pick up a little bit of lumber traffic from Cloverdale and Ukiah. Would it be enough to keep the line viable? I have my doubts, but I've been surprised by many things in the past. To be honest, at this point I see no rational basis for any resumption of service north of Ukiah unless some major new industry or traffic source gets established on the line that far north. </p>
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<p>Lastly, for tonight, rail service is not by any means the missing link preventing the redwood lumber industry from coming back. For a wide variety of reasons, the raw log supply required to run sawmills just isn't there anymore, and likely won't be for a long time to come, if ever. That, and U.S. lumber markets are not insulated from the rest of the world, and in fact U.S. producers tend to have a difficult time competing for cheap lumber imported from Canada. The U.S. used to have a tariff offering the domestic industry some protection, but it expired a couple months ago, and several sawmills- especially stud mills- throughout the northwest have either closed or are massively scaled back their operations as a result. </p>
<p></p>
<p>It's a complicated world out there. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Jeff Moore</p>
<p>Elko, NV </p> I think there's a fair amount…tag:nwprr.net,2016-04-07:3290209:Comment:1583962016-04-07T00:53:35.529ZBob Cleekhttps://nwprr.net/profile/BobCleek
<p>I think there's a fair amount of car storage at the Burdell siding, but no matter. it's easily accomplished if needed. NWP Co. must be doing something right because it's still in business!</p>
<p>That said, I'm wondering whether the full scope of federal funding and subsidies has been tapped by NCRA and/or NWP Co. (NWP Co. is more likely to be doing so, I suspect.) There is a fair amount of federal money for the improvement of short lines, which the feds realize are essential to a fully…</p>
<p>I think there's a fair amount of car storage at the Burdell siding, but no matter. it's easily accomplished if needed. NWP Co. must be doing something right because it's still in business!</p>
<p>That said, I'm wondering whether the full scope of federal funding and subsidies has been tapped by NCRA and/or NWP Co. (NWP Co. is more likely to be doing so, I suspect.) There is a fair amount of federal money for the improvement of short lines, which the feds realize are essential to a fully functioning national rail system, which they are charged with developing. Somebody has to remind Congress that an effective and efficient rail system is as much a key element to national defense than $1,000 toilet seats in $50M fighter planes. (I'm just guessing at those numbers, but I'll stand by the fact that the US has given more in munitions to the locals fighting in Syria last year than it would have taken to restore the entire NWP ROW all the way to Eureka.)</p> That would have to be one hec…tag:nwprr.net,2016-04-07:3290209:Comment:1583172016-04-07T00:38:17.026ZBob Cleekhttps://nwprr.net/profile/BobCleek
<p>That would have to be one heck of a big fundraiser! They need about $500M to rebuild the line to the coast last I heard. Maybe Jerry Lewis can do a telethon?</p>
<p></p>
<p>That would have to be one heck of a big fundraiser! They need about $500M to rebuild the line to the coast last I heard. Maybe Jerry Lewis can do a telethon?</p>
<p></p> Jordan, thanks for the update…tag:nwprr.net,2016-04-07:3290209:Comment:1582242016-04-07T00:36:38.731ZBob Cleekhttps://nwprr.net/profile/BobCleek
<p>Jordan, thanks for the update! What do I know? It's amazing how fast times change. My information wasn't anywhere near a current as your own. I hadn't heard about a drop in traffic at the container terminals. That certainly doesn't bode well for the Port of Humboldt, does it? It was a sad and tragic time when the lumber industry in the area collapsed, devastating the local economy. Unfortunately, nothing has replaced it. I suppose it's too much to hope that some big Asian car company…</p>
<p>Jordan, thanks for the update! What do I know? It's amazing how fast times change. My information wasn't anywhere near a current as your own. I hadn't heard about a drop in traffic at the container terminals. That certainly doesn't bode well for the Port of Humboldt, does it? It was a sad and tragic time when the lumber industry in the area collapsed, devastating the local economy. Unfortunately, nothing has replaced it. I suppose it's too much to hope that some big Asian car company would build a plant there. I guess the only industry they have left in the upper left corner of the state are prisons.</p>