Reopening the line to South Fork? - Northwestern Pacific Railroad Network2024-03-29T11:09:39Zhttp://nwprr.net/forum/topics/reopening-the-line-to-south-fork?commentId=3290209%3AComment%3A182697&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noIt's also available on Amazon…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-30:3290209:Comment:1826302018-01-30T01:50:06.837ZDave S.http://nwprr.net/profile/dms
<p>It's also available on Amazon:</p>
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<p><a href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1634990072/" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1634990072/</a></p>
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<p>I have just ordered a copy!</p>
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<p>It's also available on Amazon:</p>
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<p><a href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1634990072/" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1634990072/</a></p>
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<p>I have just ordered a copy!</p>
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<p></p> Thanks, Dave...I do have at l…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-29:3290209:Comment:1827092018-01-29T03:44:45.803ZJeff Moorehttp://nwprr.net/profile/JeffMoore
<p>Thanks, Dave...I do have at least the rough outlines of the story as a chapter in this book...</p>
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<p><a href="https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9781634990073" target="_blank">https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9781634990073</a></p>
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<p>Jeff Moore</p>
<p>Elko, NV</p>
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<p>Thanks, Dave...I do have at least the rough outlines of the story as a chapter in this book...</p>
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<p><a href="https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9781634990073" target="_blank">https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9781634990073</a></p>
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<p>Jeff Moore</p>
<p>Elko, NV</p>
<p></p> Mr. Moor:
Many thanks for th…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-24:3290209:Comment:1822722018-01-24T23:06:43.077ZDave S.http://nwprr.net/profile/dms
<p>Mr. Moor:</p>
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<p>Many thanks for the thought and effort you invested into the above replies. Very good information and a valuable contribution to this site! It seems you might have enough material to write a well-researched book on the decline of the NWP, perhaps complimenting Fred Codini's work.</p>
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<p>Cheers!</p>
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<p>Mr. Moor:</p>
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<p>Many thanks for the thought and effort you invested into the above replies. Very good information and a valuable contribution to this site! It seems you might have enough material to write a well-researched book on the decline of the NWP, perhaps complimenting Fred Codini's work.</p>
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<p>Cheers!</p>
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<p></p> To the discussion on Michael…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-24:3290209:Comment:1826222018-01-24T05:13:40.772ZJeff Moorehttp://nwprr.net/profile/JeffMoore
<p>To the discussion on Michael Presson, don't overlook the possibility there may very well be preliminary studies and other background work ongoing in association with the business plan or other preliminary efforts associated with reopening the Samoa-South Fork and Willits-Windsor lines. He could very well be involved in something like that as he could be doing anything else. </p>
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<p>To Dave S...yes, the spotted owl did have an impact, but it's not fair to blame all of the decline of…</p>
<p>To the discussion on Michael Presson, don't overlook the possibility there may very well be preliminary studies and other background work ongoing in association with the business plan or other preliminary efforts associated with reopening the Samoa-South Fork and Willits-Windsor lines. He could very well be involved in something like that as he could be doing anything else. </p>
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<p>To Dave S...yes, the spotted owl did have an impact, but it's not fair to blame all of the decline of the timber industry on the listing decision for that bird. The redwood lumber industry on the north coast entered a steep tailspin starting in the middle to late 1970s. The spotted owl was not placed on the endangered species list until 1990. Advocates for both environmentalism and industry like to boil everything down to a black or white issue and point fingers at the other and scream how it's all their fault, if only they would go away all our problems would be solved. When it came to the spotted owl the science the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service relied upon showed a definite link between the rapid decline of old growth forests and the owl populations. Not to say the owl could not live in other than old growth, as they have been shown to so do. Also not to say that the barred owl did not have its own impact to the spotted owl, as that link has been demonstrated as well. However, wildlife biologists had been documenting spotted owl declines well before the barred owl first showed up in Oregon in 1974, the barred owl only exacerbated a population already in trouble due to the loss of preferred habitat.</p>
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<p>When you step back and start looking at the involved timelines, the timber industry on the north coast really hit its peak in the late 1950s through the early 1970s, then fell off rapidly after that. The decline can be seen in NWP carloadings, which dropped from 65,000 in 1975 to 16,000 in 1982. When the NWP applied for authority to abandon the line north of Willits in 1983, it cited the following factors as having caused the business declines:</p>
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<p>1. Frequent and extended line closures due to storms.</p>
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<p>2. Underutilization of the line by rail shippers, coupled with high maintenance costs.</p>
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<p>3. Permanent loss of rail traffic due to the frequent closures and service disruptions.</p>
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<p>4. Lumber competition from Canada and the Southeast greatly reducing north coast lumber sales and rail usage to eastern and midwestern markets.</p>
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<p>5. Steadily increasing use of trucks to markets where rail service had once been dominant.</p>
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<p>6. Reduction in prime timber cutting areas due the creation and enlargement of Redwood National Park.</p>
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<p>7. Continuing public subsidy of truckers through state construction and maintenance of the highway system.</p>
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<p>Note in all these factors only one had anything to do with logging levels, that being Redwood National Park, which did voluntarily remove a lot of what at the time was second growth redwood and Douglas fir- plus a few remnant old growth stands- from industry ownership. In addition to the above, one cannot overlook the decimating impact the stagflation and recessionary years had on the industry in that same time period. I think the evidence is pretty strong as well that the industry cut far too many trees in the boom years of the late 1940s through the early 1970s, and by the middle 1970s competition for remaining timber sources coupled with all the other problems caused many mills to shut down. </p>
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<p>I find it fascinating to note that when the Eureka Southern came into existence in 1984 it served a grand total of eleven forest products plants in the greater Eureka area, specifically Simpson Timber Company in Korbel; Blue Lake Forest Products in Glendale; Louisiana Pacific flakeboard plant in Korblex; Sierra Pacific Industries near Manila; Louisiana Pacific in Samoa; Arcata Redwood between Arcata and Eureka; Schmidbauer in Eureka; Pacific Lumber in Fortuna; Louisiana Pacific in Carlotta; Eel River Sawmills in Stone; and Pacific Lumber in Scotia. Eureka Southern's break even point as per Fred Stindt's NWP Volume 2 book was 30 cars a day, a number it rarely attained. Thirty cars a day figures out to about 7,800 loads a year, far less than the 16,000 the NWP handled a scant two years before. For comparison, the best month carload total North Coast Railroad ever handled was 605 loads in August 1994, which is essentially right at that 30 cars per working day figure. Otherwise, North Coast averaged around 4,000-4,500 cars a year during it's operating life, which is something like 15-17 loads each working day. </p>
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<p>What makes this all relevant to the spotted owl discussion is that the first of these forest products plants to actually close after the spotted owl listing decision was the Louisiana Pacific plant in Samoa, and that didn't happen until sometime in the 1995 or later time frame, or at least five years after the listing. The rest of the plants were still in operation when the NWP closed in the first days of 1998. Only two remain in operation today. Here's the order at year in which the rest of the mills shut down:</p>
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<p>Louisiana Pacific Flakeboard- circa 1998</p>
<p>Eel River Sawmills- 2000/2001</p>
<p>Blue Lake Forest Products- 2002</p>
<p>Pacific Lumber- Carlotta- Formerly Louisiana Pacific- 2004</p>
<p>Pacific Lumber- Fortuna- 2005</p>
<p>California Redwood Company (formerly Simpson and Arcata Redwood)- 2015. </p>
<p>Sierra Pacific- 2016</p>
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<p>The only two forest product plants still running on the north coast are Schmidbauer in Eureka and part of the old Pacific Lumber plant in Scotia, now operated by Humboldt Redwood, though large parts of it closed down in the early 2000s. That being said, the Schmidbauer interests have purchased the old Simpson/California Redwood mill in Korbel and should have it back up and running sometime in 2018. </p>
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<p>Bottom line, it's hard to tie any of these down to only the spotted owl issue. Same for the wave of closures that happened well before the owl. Basic economics, competition, paying one way or another for past exploitations of the forests, California's business and tax environment, sometimes draconian timber harvest practice rules designed to accommodate logging while preserving other important resources and species, environmental litigation, and a host of other issues have all combined to create the situation that now is. The industry on the north coast figured out pretty quick how to continue logging around the owl when it became an issue. A couple sweeps across the north coast area in Google Earth shows plenty of very recent logging operations and lots of scars of slightly older logging that are in various stages of regrowth.</p>
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<p>One edit...as for tourist trains, those would almost certainly be operated baring some major difficulty by the Timber Heritage Association. Getting such a train up and running around the Eureka area has, along with a redwood logging museum, been the overall goal of that organization for many decades now. I agree such an operation would be risky, especially given that pretty much everything the group owns would require small to large fortunes to make operational. Stations, bathrooms, parking, advertising, insurance, and a lot of other costs would also need to be budgeted for in any tourist operations. It could work, but would take some serious resources to get off the ground and then keep going once running. </p>
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<p>I think I've gone on long enough for tonight.</p>
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<p>Jeff Moore</p>
<p>Elko, NV </p>
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<p> </p> Emilio:
This "friend" of your…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-24:3290209:Comment:1823712018-01-24T04:52:45.443ZRichard C. Brandhttp://nwprr.net/profile/RichardCBrand
<p>Emilio:</p>
<p>This "friend" of yours, could it be our friend Tommy? Kinda sounds like his/hers MO.</p>
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<p>Emilio:</p>
<p>This "friend" of yours, could it be our friend Tommy? Kinda sounds like his/hers MO.</p>
<p></p> I was just reading the commen…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-24:3290209:Comment:1826202018-01-24T00:03:17.271ZC Glovehttp://nwprr.net/profile/ChadGlover
<p>I was just reading the comments under your post on FB, looks like a guy to take his words for what they are worth....not much. </p>
<p>I was just reading the comments under your post on FB, looks like a guy to take his words for what they are worth....not much. </p> Thank you for this informatio…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-23:3290209:Comment:1823692018-01-23T20:07:56.667ZEmilio Galohttp://nwprr.net/profile/Theduckmstr1
<p>Thank you for this information Jeff, I will be more cautious about believing what he says. I thought he was being truthful.</p>
<p>Thank you for this information Jeff, I will be more cautious about believing what he says. I thought he was being truthful.</p> Supposedly he said that he is…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-23:3290209:Comment:1826192018-01-23T20:06:20.350ZEmilio Galohttp://nwprr.net/profile/Theduckmstr1
<p>Supposedly he said that he is a sub contractor with NWP, I am starting not to believe what he says. He is a friend of mine.</p>
<p>Supposedly he said that he is a sub contractor with NWP, I am starting not to believe what he says. He is a friend of mine.</p> He claims to be a sub contrac…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-23:3290209:Comment:1826972018-01-23T20:05:41.523ZEmilio Galohttp://nwprr.net/profile/Theduckmstr1
<p>He claims to be a sub contractor with NWP, and he said he has been on track inspection crews. I was reading about him on the Facebook group, and apparently he is a big fake. I ran into him on a train orders page, and he and I became friends.</p>
<p>He claims to be a sub contractor with NWP, and he said he has been on track inspection crews. I was reading about him on the Facebook group, and apparently he is a big fake. I ran into him on a train orders page, and he and I became friends.</p> A quick web search shows SVP…tag:nwprr.net,2018-01-23:3290209:Comment:1822682018-01-23T19:48:12.129ZC Glovehttp://nwprr.net/profile/ChadGlover
<p>A quick web search shows SVP is a consulting firm and this guy works for them. The plot thickens. Emilio, where did you run into this guy and what's his roll with the NCRA/NWP? </p>
<p>A quick web search shows SVP is a consulting firm and this guy works for them. The plot thickens. Emilio, where did you run into this guy and what's his roll with the NCRA/NWP? </p>